Show Synopsis

In this episode of the Partner Channel Podcast, Daniel Graff-Radford sits down with Tina Gravel from Appgate and Dan Tomaszewski from Kaseya to discuss how to activate a security channel. They dive into lessons learned in 2020 and also discuss the changing role of MDFs in partner engagement. 

Subscribe to the Partner Channel Podcast

The Script

Daniel Graff- Radford: Welcome to the Partner Channel podcast, the voice of the Partner Channel community. I’m Daniel Graff-Radford the CEO here at Allbound and so excited to be sitting down with Tina Gravel, senior vice president of Channel and Alliances at Appgate, and Dan Tomaszewski, senior vice president of Channel and Community at Kaseya. Welcome. So, Tina, I was hoping you could kick us off by telling us a little bit about your background and how you got to update.

Tina Gravel: Well, I was gosh, I’ve been in IT for a long time, Dan, a long, long, long, long time, and I don’t even want to say how long, but long enough and about. Let’s see. Seven years ago, I was asked by some investors that I knew that I had worked with Terremark to come over and participate in a company that they had purchased off the Swedish Stock Exchange, moved over to Boston, and began running, which was called Crypstone back then. And it was a security company. And I thought, sure, it’s IT, why not? I had no idea what I was getting myself into because at that point I knew about security. I knew what a VPN was. The firewall was, IPS and IDS and I think that was about it. So that’s how I got involved with security. As far as the channel goes, I’ve been in the channel for about 15 years, 15, about 30 years, total IT 15 direct and 15 indirect.

Daniel Graff- Radford: That’s fantastic. And Dan, do you mind telling us how you got to Kaseya?

Dan Tomaszewski: Yeah, no, I appreciate having you on today. I come from the background of being an MSP, an MSP CEO for five years, know so being in the space and being someone that was heavily involved in the channel from the MSP front. And then I went over to ID agent and was there a vice president of Channel Success and help them build out their MSP program. And when we were acquired by, Kaseya a couple of years ago, that was one of the reasons that we were acquired, because they wanted to have a channel program for all of the different brands under Kasaya. And now I oversee our channel for all of our brands. And I don’t know if I have enough fingers to keep up with all the different ones. We’ve been acquiring and as we acquire new ones, we bring them into our channel program.

Daniel Graff- Radford: So this is really exciting. You know, a lot of companies out there are seeing tremendous success in the specifically channel related to security offerings. And so we were just really grateful. You guys agreed to sit down as leaders in channel leaders, in software leaders, in security technology to help us kind of understand how you got into this and to understand the space. And one of the things that I think to just kick us off at a high level is I’d be really interested in what are some of the differentiators in the channel space as it relates to security versus other areas.

Tina Gravel: I think that the security space, if you really look at the history of this space, it really kind of collected around Cisco, let’s say, about 30 years ago. OK, and what you found is a lot of resellers that started in the space and many of them were focused on became focused on the network and network security and they came up that way. We kind of a bifurcated channel now in terms of what I do and that we have folks that came from the network side of things that we’re used to selling, you know, MSP services, let’s say colocation services, network services. And then you have resellers that came up on the Cisco side of things, selling used to selling reselling products for security that has over time led to very specific resellers that understand the security software sales. It’s but it’s pretty divided right now in terms of what they know, what they do, and how they approach the market. And then, of course, what Dan T. Does is very different in terms of the MSPs. And we have to deal with that as well. But. It’s not commodities yet, we’re all slightly different, and so it’s really about, in many cases, disruption and differentiators and helping them to understand these technical aspects of things and this different language that they haven’t been exposed to.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I think these are great points. You know, this is an emerging but fast-growing and changing arena for security with a lot of differentiators and products. And you can’t really just go to one place to get everything. And I think that these are really important points Dan anything you would want to add about this?

Dan Tomaszewski: Yeah, I think you mean one of the things obviously like Tina was saying, I do a lot with the MSPs, but I think you look at what covid done and just security in general, it’s really accelerated the growth of SMBs, whether you’re a one-man shop or you’re a five thousand person employee shop. We’re seeing that everyone is starting to take it more. You know, they’re taking it serious before a lot of people were like, I’m too small. It can’t happen to me. You know, we don’t have to worry about those. So some of the challenges people had selling, you know, to SMBs or relaying the message, it’s now well received. And because people are seeing the work from home and they do need to secure their things because they’re logging in and doing things that they weren’t doing a year and a half ago. So I think we’ve really seen space accelerate in the growth in terms of maturity. And I think now some of the differentiators are really from security is how do you go to market and how do you help the SMBs and others realized the needs and educating them around the security and why you’re the different solutions, you know, are going to help them and continue to secure their business?

Daniel Graff- Radford: Yeah, I definitely hear that a lot from our security customers where covid has really broadened the reach of what people are thinking about for security with all these new endpoints of people at home and all the things they’re doing at home that they used to do in an office. And, you know, we’re recording this in May of 2021. And as someone in Atlanta, Georgia, who just paid a huge amount for gasoline, you know, there’s even pretty large companies that are getting caught up and not having maybe all the security they wish they had. And we’re definitely seeing people using these instances to think harder about who is vulnerable to what type of security opportunities that they can improve on. So really, really great points here. So now that we’ve talked that a bit of a high level, let’s help our listeners understand what are these types of companies that are partnering with you guys? More on the sales side. I think people have a bit of an understanding on the technical side that there are broad technologies that you guys probably integrate with. But on the sales side for driving revenue, who are these people out there that are helping you guys out? Let’s start with Dan this time.

Dan Tomaszewski: So for us, it’s demand and service providers that are out there selling the products and the solutions for the most part. And I mean, they’re going out there and selling to all shapes and sizes of businesses, you know, so we’re seeing it in manufacturing, health care, financial. You know, those spaces are where a lot of our managed service providers are out there and seeing tremendous growth. We saw a lot of decline. I wouldn’t say decline is the right word, but with covid, we saw the hospitality industry get kind of rocked for that first part. It’s making a pretty steady comeback right now, but they’re out there selling security to those different organizations. And so they go through us, you know, and we’re out there helping them and helping them with the message, helping them with getting ready to overcome the objections and the different things that they’re going to experience on a daily basis. But, you know, we’re seeing that the conversations that they’re having with their end customers, you know, we’re a year ago or two years ago, it could have been a three to a four-month buying cycle. We’re seeing it shortened into like a one to two-week buying cycle now because just like we were saying a little bit ago, the message is very well received.

Daniel Graff- Radford: That’s amazing with partners seeing that that quick a buying cycle and what a pull-through demand, that that is also probably to Tina, who would you like to point out as the potential partners out there helping out security vendors?

Tina Gravel: Well, you know, I actually work with, I think, a slightly different market than Dan does in terms of we are sort of medium to large, the government, and fortune 100. The kinds of partners that we’re working with that are doing a really good job for us are those that are very educated in what Zero Trust is, which is one of the concepts that our products and services around secure access, you know, follows. They’re very, very educated. And if they’re not very educated, they have a hunger to be educated. And so I’ve had to do a lot of work on my educational capabilities this year to make sure I had what they needed. A lot of people talk about Zero Trust, a lot of different companies and vendors, but in order to get these smart, I call them the smart guys, what they needed. And there’s many smart women as well. I had to really understand get into the minds of our own technical folks and understand what it was that that got them excited about things and then trained accordingly.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I think that these are really good points that, And now sort of skipping over back to Dan that when you go from longer sales cycles down to smaller sales and sales cycles and you’re engaging SMBs and different crowds that that weren’t there before. And Dan’s case that, you know, it’s really interesting that we can have this shift. And so, you know, for any of our listeners that have security technologies that are kind of looking at what’s really working out there, I am hearing this and a number of companies and sort of talking about that engagement that I think you’re hitting at here, Tina. Yeah, you know, people obviously are coming to us to talk about leveraging tools to engage partners. But given your years of experience, working in technology, working with channel, working with security companies, you know, it can be really tough to gain the mindshare of these partners where they don’t wake up in the morning and necessarily think about your product. They have a broad set of things that they can work with. You know, what do you do to get mindshare, get in front of them, stay engaged where they think about you more than they think about others.

Tina Gravel: Well, I wish there was an easy answer for this. I really, really do, because there isn’t there’s a multitude of answers, OK? It’s you know, you have to stay top of mind with information. You have to add value. You can’t simply stay in touch with them. You have to if you’re going to be in touch, you have to add some value and bring something of interest of use to them. It’s having the ability to let them be self-service if they need to. So where your tools come into play, you know, being able to do outreach and then have them be self-service if they’d like, it’s a matter of giving them relevant content that they can use to build their own business, their own security practice. We try to do that. We try to make suggestions. You know, and it’s interesting to me, I’ve done this for years now because I was early on in the cloud. I brought the cloud to the channel. And it’s crazy to me how many companies didn’t take me up on some of the ideas that I had back then. But the ones that did are now, you know, have massive businesses around some of these consulting ideas. And my ideas with the cloud that I had. So not to say I had these ideas. I’m just saying, you know, in discussions, we would say, hey, why don’t you do this with our product? Why don’t you do that? I think that that kind of discourse where you’re talking about how to build their business, you really get in, you understand what it is they need, and then try to help them. That’s always a better approach than trying to get them to sell your thing without any added value. Right? Whatever that thing may be.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I think that’s really great. So that level of engagement, having a multitude of ways to keep them engaged is not one thing. And to get really deep into the services that they work with that compliment your products as well as all the different points of interaction, whether automated or, you know, with personalized touches. Those are really good points. Dan, I know this is absolutely an amazing thing for you and your team there at Kaseya, you guys are first-rate at partner engagement. What would you like to share with the listeners?

Dan Tomaszewski: Yeah, you know, I, I share a lot of what Tina said. You know, you have to get at their level. And I think that’s the one thing, you know, if you want to activate your channel and you want to get people that are engaged, you have to be in the trenches with them. You have to know what’s going on. And I think so many times that we see vendors out in the space where, you know, they just make material to make material to help sell their product while I want to sell my product. At the end of the day, if an MSP is successful we’re successful and we’ll see them pull-through there, so how can we help them sell their full services? I mean, that’s something that we really prided ourself in, is, you know, do we have every product under the sun at Kaseya? No, there’s lots of other things. Can we help through our channel program, sell those solutions? Absolutely. And we found that taking that strategy and really getting in the trenches with the MSPs and getting them material that’s written by them. You know, I’ve got people on my team that are former MSP CEOs, so we’re writing it as it’s coming from them, not from a vendor that’s got our logo on it or anything. It’s coming straight from the MSP and letting them put the brand on it. If they choose to put our logo great. If not, it looks like it’s coming one hundred percent from them. And we found that all of a sudden our engagement just went through the roof and people were like, this is great. You know, we’re not used to seeing this type of stuff.

Dan Tomaszewski: You know, we’re used to seeing everything that we just have to cobrand with, you know, everyone else’s logo. And it’s not really written as it’s coming from us. So changing that dynamic and getting really in the trenches, you know, we go on calls with them and, you know, we’re there and we come in. I can come in as a member of your team, you know, as I’m there is another person on your MSP’s team I can come in is the vendor. Which way is best for you? And we got to do things differently. You know, we can’t always have it the way we want it. We got to find ways of how we can help our customers be successful. And, you know, it’s not easy because this world is changing. When covid hit, I had a meeting with my team and I was like, we have to pivot fast. We literally were just talking about this in our leadership meeting. The day the world shut down, pretty much all the lockdown’s we launched a How to have a Lunch and learn guide. And I was like, could that have been the wrong time, you know, to where we’re launching a lunch and learn guide and lunch and learns went away for a year and a half. And so we pivoted real quick to covid materials and marketing materials around covid work from home and helping our MSP’s. And that’s what we saw all right away, the engagement was climbing and we just really latched on from there and continued to create content that was working for them, help them sell their whole solution, not just our products.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I love that. When you as well, your team rather becomes part of their team where the content that you’re creating feels like it’s a step up within their own marketing organization and they’re providing it as their own and knowing that they are learning to lean on you and trust you gains a lot more mindshare than thinking about you throwing stuff over the wall and wondering whether you share it. You know, I think that that is a very, very good engagement, hiring people that have the background of your partner so that they really trust that the people on your team get it on what they’re doing every day. And then, you know, Dan I just really, really want to highlight that, you know, a lot of companies that I know that pivoted quickly into covid saw outsized rewards from that because everyone was hungry for what to do next and sort of becoming a place that people could lean into and learn about. And that sort of thing just really, really is is a smart move. And there’s constant change happening today. You know, there’s the beginning of traveling. There’s different things that people can think that our listeners about. How do you lean into the next change that’s happening? And so I think that that this is really, really great advice. So, you know, in this world of tactics, you know, before we got started, Tina, you talked a little bit about shifting in the channel from margin to MDF for some of the focus for some of the partners. You know, I think MDF is one of those things that marketing development fundsthe money that is is shared for marketing purposes between partners. But can you help us understand what that shift is that’s going on and what you think will happen in the future?

Tina Gravel: Yeah, I don’t you know, I can’t see the crystal ball on this thing. I do know that the margins are getting smaller and smaller and smaller with the vendors. And I wouldn’t say it’s the MSP type vendors like the and I’m talking about the the big software sellers. We’ve held the line on our margins. We haven’t affected it hasn’t affected our MDF, where what it does affect is the back end rebates, the rebates. We just we’re just not doing them. And we’re fortunate enough that the distributors that we work with understand why. And we give bigger margins and we want the reps to have those margins because, by the way, we are a disruptive technology. This isn’t the easiest thing to sell. They’re not taking orders here. OK, they are. And by the way, what Dan talks about, about having to do some heavy lifting in the field with them, we do that on everything. There isn’t one sale that we do a partner does by himself. It’s just not done. There’s always a sales rep with them. We do their quotes. We do everything. Why is that? Because up until recently, the market didn’t even know what Zero Trust was, let alone software, defined perimeter, and all the things we talk about. And so we had to. Now, over time, I see that evolving. But about right now, that’s the way it is now. As far as MDF goes, I strongly believe in marketing development funds.

Tina Gravel: What I don’t believe in is a company giving me a menu that says you’re going to pay seventy-five thousand, one hundred thousand dollars and here’s what you get for it. I think that’s for a commoditized product. That’s not what I do. I don’t want to be part of a party. I love parties. I’d love to have my name on the party. Yeah, that be nice. I love a party like anybody else, especially coming out of covid. You’re going to see a lot of partying going on. But the fact of the matter is, is that I need to have training done. I can’t do my messaging at a party. OK, so I’m looking for training opportunities. So for a partner to tell me that I have to pay one hundred thousand dollars and I’m going to get access to these ten parties and golf tournaments. And, you know, that doesn’t do a lot for me. So I think overall there has to be that the resellers, the big resellers really need to look at this and need to understand. And I and I know why they do it. I worked for one. I understand it’s the way they run their business. But I’m telling you now, it’s they’d be much better taking my product and building services around it. That’s far longer lasting than to try to make money on charging me for training.

Dan Tomaszewski: I add to that for a second,

Tina Gravel: Yes, please.

Dan Tomaszewski: Well, I think the one thing that’s changing and I would say this to anybody that’s got a channel program right now, when you look at MDF funds and I was on both sides of the fence, I was a MSP at one point. You know, you go out there, you ask for funds to go to an event, and then you go do an event. But the problem is, if you don’t know how to execute the event and you’re not trained to be able to go through and do it, are you a vendor that’s putting money out there in the space? And it’s not really getting the full effectiveness? And I think that you really need to reverse engineer it, like she’s saying is you need to go out there instead of giving them money for a golf outing, teach them how to run a golf outing, teach them how to go out and actually and we hit we did this we created a golf outing playbook and we said, here’s all the best practices. Here’s what you need to do. Here’s what you don’t want to do. And you’re setting them up for success. And that’s the part where MDF funds are great. But notoriously in this space, I’m not slamming anybody, but they’re not great salespeople.

Dan Tomaszewski: A lot of people are very technical. They don’t know how to go out and actually sell the different solutions and educate. Or sometimes they come across as hard-selling versus do the education. So really, look at your MDF funds and go, can we create a great partner program where we’re training them? We’re giving them really good resources, we’re giving them all that and we can give it to everybody versus only the select few that require MDF. And I think you’re going to see your channel program start to explode because you’re now getting everybody MDF funds and they don’t even realize because you’re teaching them how to fish. And I think that’s really where the industry needs to start to pivot more is stop throwing money to go to a bar and say things, you know, and that while those things work, I’m not saying they don’t. Invest more in your partners in their ability to sell and give them the resources to do it with the training like Tina was talking about. And I think you’re going to see your channel program grow a lot faster than select MDF.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I think these are really good points, you know, and, you know, as a historical context, the original kind of MDF use of marketing development funds, if someone was going to a trade show and that vendor thought would be a good spot for them to participate, but not necessarily directly as a vendor, you know, you kind of share in the cost of attending or something like that. And there would be a clear ROI of those attendees showing up as leads, you know, net x many hours after the show or during the show. And then you could sort of tie this thing back in terms of money in and money out. And it’s become a much broader category. And it also has some people expecting MDF for it without proving why they’re using it. And it’s and it’s you know, as with anything that broadens like that, it needs to be thought hard about. And, you know, I really like this idea of having training for how to run a golf event or how to run a Zoom and learn now and lunch and learn in the future. And that also sets the standards. You know, people aren’t looking to waste money. They might not understand those standards. And then it sort of becomes just part of their budget, to your point, you know, but if they can do it at a high standard and learn how to do it at a high standard, everyone’s going to make a lot more money. I think that’s great.

Tina Gravel: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Daniel Graff- Radford: And so that now, just to kind of move on to our Final Four questions, Tina, we’ll start with you. If you had a superpower, what would it be and why?

Tina Gravel: I’d love to have this osmosis tool right where I could have a book on my pillow at night and then it would just magically all the information or, you know, an email or something where the information just gets in my head. Right, that I don’t have to have 300 emails greeting me in the morning and have to choose which one is more important, I’m bombarded with information and I need help to understand what’s the most important thing for me to get to. And I’m just bombarded and everybody is right, the messaging, the all of the different formats. And so wouldn’t it be nice if you woke up in the morning and all that information was already taken in osmosis learning? Yes. Yes by osmosis. That’s just laid out on your maybe you have you know, you have some sort of a comfortable pillow type of a PC and you lay on it and the next morning you’ve got all the information and in your head.

Daniel Graff- Radford: Yeah, I was watching a video with Elon Musk talking about his Neurolink company, and I think that’s. Yeah. His idea to do so.

Tina Gravel: So I did not know that. But now that I do, I’m going to check it out. That’s what we need. It’s just too much information. I can’t decide where to put my time anymore because I am constantly bombarded. You know, when it comes to work and family, you know what to do, you know, like the basics. But but getting down into the priorities is tough.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I totally, totally agree. Dan what’s what superpower would you like?

Dan Tomaszewski: There’s so many would like to go after? You know, most days I wish I could clone myself, you know, because there’s a lot there’s not enough of me to support necessarily my team, my partners and all that and to be able to go around. So, you know, it was either between cloning myself or something that could do all my email filing on a daily basis for me automatically, because those are the two things that I feel would allow me to be even more effective in the space.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I like that every time someone says cloning, I always think of that movie multiplicity.

Tina Gravel: That was fun. It was fun movie.

Daniel Graff- Radford: All right. So now back into the world of channel. Tina can you give us an example of a mistake and a success, either you or someone you know has had that we can learn from?

Tina Gravel: Oh, there’s so many mistakes that I’ve made and people I know have made, I think I think we’ve talked about them today. I think, you know, throwing money at a problem and not truly understanding what the problem is. You know, it’s like a doctor. You don’t go to a doctor and have the doctor just give you a prescription, right? You you you talk to him. You listen, you listen. Hopefully, he’s listening and he’s using his information to prescribe something properly to you. I think that’s the biggest thing. I’m not going to pick on somebody by giving you the exact example, but I have seen it over and over and over again where there’s waste. And there are just things being thrown at a problem just because. And by the way, a lot of times it’s because their competitor is doing it, so. Oh well, they’re giving one hundred K so I’m going to give I got to give one hundred K too. Well what do you, what are you doing with the money. You know, so I’m really big on this right now. Can you tell? But that’s that, that’s what I would say.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I think that’s a good one. OK, and Dan, any successes and failures you’d like to share?

Dan Tomaszewski: Yeah, I think, you know, one of the mistakes, but it’s not necessarily always a mistake is I tend to try to you know, we tend to try to road map out too far. And I think everybody wants a roadmap. And I think it’s hard, especially when you’re in a channel and sales and marketing because things happen and a lot of time, energy, and planning can go down. So one of the things I’ve learned is control what we can control. And we need to go out there and do the best we can. I mean, obviously be a quarter out but I’m not planning a year out like I was because who knows what the next year is going to look like. We need to adapt more. And that kind of goes into the success, though, essentially went into that mind frame mindset. We’ve been able to go out there and like I was saying earlier, you know, bring things that are relevant, current. It’s allowing us to bring things to our partners that are happening real-time and develop things that they can go out and really leverage. And I think that’s important. You know, people need content. They need things that are real-life, real-world examples that are happening right now that they can use to market and sell. And it’s really helped us accelerate that. So I’m a big fan of road mapping and you should always know your future stuff, but don’t get too far ahead because all it takes is like covid or something else to change. And your roadmaps are thrown off the wall.

Tina Gravel: Yeah. Oh, boy. We learned that, didn’t we? We sure have.

Daniel Graff- Radford: That’s true. It’s great to have a roadmap of being willing to pivot. That’s right. Yes.

Tina Gravel: You have to have a plan B.

Daniel Graff- Radford: All right, so, Tina, if you were to recommend a book to someone that aspire to leadership in the channel or any business book that you think you want to recommend or what are you what’s going through your head?

Tina Gravel: I just I let me I’m going to just grab it. I just read the most awesome book it’s not about leadership in the channel, though, but it’s something that everybody should read. It’s called the deficit myth. Modern Monetary Theory and the Birth of the People’s Economy by Stephanie Kelton. This woman boy, she knows how to talk about economics. It will teach you all you need to know about how this country is running and how Social Security, the whole thing. But what it did is it gave me a lot more insight on how we should run our business as well. So I it’s funny, I never heard of this book. Somebody told me about it and it just blew me away. So it’s very, very good book. It’s not about politics. It’s really about economics. I think you’d enjoy it, too.

Daniel Graff- Radford: Oh, great. That’s a great recommendation. Dan, what book do you have to recommend to everyone else?

Dan Tomaszewski: So I go for a different vibe here with a lot of people when they hear me say this. But there’s a book by Roxanne Emerich called Thank God it’s Monday. And I’ll tell you, it’s one of those things that it really gets you thinking and it’s all about loving what you’re doing. And when you can do that, you can create massive results and thinking about your team culture, your customer’s culture, you know, and how you can help and really impact that in when you sit down and think about it, we always go, thank God it’s Friday because we’re ready for the workweek to be done. But are your employees coming to work going, Oh, man, I’m so pumped to be here, I’m happy it’s Monday? And it really reminds me as a leader that I need to make sure we’re creating the right work environment, because if we create the right work environment and our teams are successful, I know our partners will feel that same way. And it’s really been an inspiration for me. And I use that book all the time in my team meetings.

Tina Gravel: I’m going to have to get that. Thank you Dan.

Daniel Graff- Radford: Those are great, great, great examples. And Dan, do you want to since you’re the roadmap planner, take us home with the first stab at this one, which is there’s a lot of trends and changes happening right now. What is something going on right now that you think people should be aware of that will affect us five years or so in the future or more?

Dan Tomaszewski: So this one, this is I saw this question coming, and it’s one of those ones that, you know, five years from now, what are the major changes going to be? It’s really hard to pinpoint certain things right now. I’ll say this. We’re sitting in today’s time. You look at it today. I mean, look at a year ago. I know we keep mentioning covid. I want to get to a spot where we’re not talking about anymore. But the supply we went a year ago and things were shutting down. Hospitality now hospitality is coming back. And what are we seeing? We’re seeing supply chain all over the place is being affected. And they’re saying it could be two, three years before things get back to somewhat of a normal. So I think it’s going to change for, and I’m speaking from my angle, MSPs could have manufacturing customers. Well, if you’ve got manufacturing right now and you’ve got like Ford, GM, Chrysler, all these automotive are saying they’re shutting down plants, they’re laying people off. What is that going to do for channel sales? What is that going to do in those spaces? So I think we really have to pay attention to diversify our businesses, our product solutions and how we can go forward. So many people are focused on one vertical, and I think covid taught us to got to diversify a little bit more to make sure that you’ve got the, you know, the security and the revenue and the income to be able to continue to go through. So from our partner’s basis, I’m concerned about some of the supply chain impacts that it’s not only having an automotive but furniture. I mean, you’re hearing retailers. I mean, everybody’s paying that price. So I think we’re going to learn some lessons here on supply chain and impacts of different pandemics and crisis’s that can occur. And I think it’s going to change the space and how we work going forward.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I think that that is something really important to think about. Tina, what would you like to share?

Tina Gravel: Well, I’m going to I’m actually more on the futurist side of things where I think everything Dan said is correct. By the way, I would agree completely. The supply chain is right now in dire straits. And it’ll be interesting to see, especially with all the people issues that we have. But now we’re going to see AI take off a lot more peer-to-peer financial solutions. This whole, you know, the Bitcoin and all of that. That’s interesting. And that’s getting a lot of exciting press. But really, this whole ability for people in the Third World to not have to have worry about having to have banking of their own, that they can just go through their phones and so forth, be able to do banking and have it be secure. The impact of trust through blockchains into all of the applications and things that we’re using. I think we’ll see a lot more of that. So definitely artificial intelligence into cybersecurity for sure. No question it’s coming. And thank goodness it is. Then we’re getting into it because the bad guys have got it, too. And then this whole other thing about about making sure that, you know, everybody no one is no one is ignored in society anymore, that they can buy land, that they can do business, that that there are ways in which, you know, we don’t have this haves and have nots society. And I think blockchain and these technologies could help a lot with that. So that’s sort of what I think about.

Daniel Graff- Radford: I think those are great things. I really like all of these, and I’ve learned a lot today. So I want to thank our guests, Tina Gravel and Dan Tomaszewski. And obviously, I’d like to thank our listeners for joining us here at the Partner Channel podcast. If you like what you’ve heard, please subscribe to our podcast episodes anywhere you normally get podcasts.