The Script

Welcome to the new EMEA Partner Channel podcast, where we sit down with the EMEA channel leaders who share their stories to help those of you just starting a partnership role, the channel experts looking to revamp their program or anyone in between.

Palmer Foster: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the new AMIA Partner Channel podcast, the voice of EMEA Channel. I’m Palmer Foster, the account director for EMEA. And joining me today is Niels Bergman’s partner manager lead at Tracify. Niels, it’s so great to have you. I know we’ve kind of got a relationship going on now. It’s always a pleasure when we get to connect, but a bit of background for you, especially for those that can’t see you standing up. But you’re a very tall, proud Dutch man. You’re from Eindhoven, and I know you wanted me to mention Home of Philips and ASML, where they originated 33 years old. You love to watch people cook, which is. I love that. I’m very much in that camp, too, of you want to eat all the good food. A self-described basketball freak. I know that was one of the first things we actually talked about a few years back of, you know, you’re from the Netherlands. Do you play volleyball? And it’s basketball instead. And one of the things I got to call you out on is obviously you’re known for a signature of having your hats, but then you leaned into bow ties and was very disappointed that you’re not wearing a bow tie today, but you’ve got a very good excuse for that. So is there anything I missed out that you want to add?

Niels Bergmans: No, I think that basically summed up everything literally like sorry for the bow tie. I mean, it’s getting boring again. And then wearing a bow tie with the hat sign, it’s not convenient. So in summer I’m the tall hat with the hat. So that’s why I’m wearing a hat right now. But that’s it.

Palmer Foster: And for the for people that don’t know you or know this story, what I absolutely love last time we spoke is you’re now making your own bow ties. You got to talk about that. How did you get into this one? All right.

Niels Bergmans: So at one point, I was thinking like, you know what? How do you stand out in the crowd, even though I’m two meter tall guy. Right. That’s quite convenient. But I said, you know what, I’m going to be dressing up a bit more dapper, a bit more peaky blinder kind of style, right? So I started buying bow ties and those things are really expensive, right? Yeah. So I just took some old clothes that I didn’t really wear anymore and I started cutting them up and I went to my grandma and I went like, Hey, can you teach me how to use a sewing machine? And then it started from there, building up my little mini brand of making my handmade custom made bow ties. Yeah, I have over 50 right now, so that’s quite a lot.

Palmer Foster: This could be a side hustle for you. Now you’re going to set up a business and sell it through partners, right? Yeah.

 Niels Bergmans: You’re not the first one who mentioned that. Like, Hey, you should really dive on it. But it takes me about an hour to make a proper handmade bow tie. So, yeah.

Palmer Foster: I mean, any worthwhile bow tie, probably it’s it’s going to be that kind of investment from whoever’s making them. So, you know, there might be a future market for you and this podcast is going to kick start your bow tie career.

 Niels Bergmans: Let’s see.

 Palmer Foster: But obviously you have you have a lot of experience with channel rather than me trying to summarize it. I don’t know if you want to kind of let our listeners have a bit of background about you before we jump in. 

Niels Bergmans: Yeah, sure. Cool. So for the last eight years I’ve always been working in a startup environment, always been on the commercial side of things, really focusing on personal brand and trying to get into the position of becoming a thought leader. And what better way to do it than in a partnership environment where a lot of partners, agencies, whether it’s an agency or a tech partnership or just an industry partnership, start to know you as a person in a certain industry and then know to go to that place. And I’ve been doing that for over four years, around four years for Saint Cloud, where we started off with basically nothing. We had a bucket full of around 100. Maybe it’s partners like, is it a carrier? No. Is it a client? Like a merchant web shop owner? No. Then it’s a partner. Uh, started playing off with that. And in about, like, three and a half years, my companion, Roland and I, we started up to build up a whole team of 20 people in the partnership industry, having more than 600 partners, bringing around 20% of the revenue and in new business on a monthly recurring basis to Saint Cloud. And now at one point, Tracy reached out and said, like, hey, the thing that you did for Saint Cloud, can you come do that for us being a startup from Germany and said, You know what? Yeah, let’s do it again. Let’s go for it.

Palmer Foster: Yeah. And that’s and that’s really where our kind of relationship kicked off is when you’re at SoundCloud and going through that process of evaluating, Okay, what do you have? And I know you were already a couple of years into it, but it’s always impressive when you, you know, most people have to start off organically and it’s always a new role to them at some point, and it’s you get dumped into the situation of, all right, what do I actually have? What am I working with here? And and that’s always, I would argue, the first obstacle that you’ve got to overcome is understanding who are my partners and what is my ideal partner profile look like. And so, you know, thinking back to that process at SoundCloud, how did you navigate understanding, Hey, what partners do I have and who do I want to work with?

Niels Bergmans: Yeah, that’s a nice question. I think like you said, the first thing is like, what would be your ideal partner profile? What is the partner that is. First of all, want to be an ambassador of you who is really convenient working with the tool or the solution that you’re trying to get in the market. And then which of those partners is ambassador enough to really stick it to all of the merchants that they work with? And for us, that was basically what type of solution and e-commerce are they working with? Is that a Shopify versus a magento versus a software or a prestashop whatsoever? And what is the ideal client size of the amount of shipments that they do? And that was really basically the first step, like discover what is the partners that we have, what do they do, what do they sell? Are they a hybrid focusing on one solution, two solutions or three solutions or like dedicated to just a, for instance, Shopify only environment? Once we knew that we could start segmenting like, okay, if we know the partners, then let’s see what type of sizes that they are. Is it like a one man show, ten people? Is it a company that’s like going worldwide for 100, 200, 500 FTE? Do they focus on building only or like the full strategy around it with marketing, social, etcetera? 

So that was for us, step one, really find like what do we have, what do we want to play with and how can we scale that? Perfect partner profile into the bigger dream.

\Palmer Foster: And something I’d love to kind of hear from your view is when you’re identifying IPS or ideal partner profiles and you’ve mentioned Shopify. So the way a partner like that works is more kind of. I’d say e-commerce, e-commerce, excuse me, or a kind of marketplace sells like that versus you have resellers referrals, you’ve got all these different acronyms and Channel World. And one of our previous podcasts with Alan Walsh from Trade Ledger, you know, more of the fintech side, they operate in more kind of an ecosystem play and you’ve got all these different terms and it all falls under the general umbrella of channel. But to you, how important is it understanding kind of where your software fits or your product and understanding, Okay, do we need to go through a marketplace? Do we need to go through e-commerce? Do we can we actually use resellers or is it a case of do you think there’s space for everyone? I’m just it’s kind of an off the cuff question. But now that we’re thinking about it, it’s that case of. You know, again, it comes back to that IP. But the same time is, is there ever a situation where it really doesn’t make sense?

Niels Bergmans: I Yeah, I think in the beginning we were just, as we say in Netherlands, just throwing mud against the wall. Let’s see what sticks, right? Like, hey, is it a reseller that’s proactively reselling and literally doing the selling part and the onboarding part preventing churn, etcetera? Or is it more or less the snappy and quick way of having a referral link, push that link through and that’s that. And at one point we started to realize that the deals that were referred via a official referral form where they had certain questions like What’s the platform they’re using, what’s the amount of shipments that they’re doing, etcetera, etcetera. That started to stick way better because we could do a pre qualification with the information that the partner gave us because they gave us more information than just using a simple referral link. And we really could use that to really pre-qualify the merchant, have a good profile of that merchant and then hand it over to sales. So at one point we started to realize, you know what, why don’t we go double down on the referral partners instead of like reselling partners? Because that takes a lot of onboarding, a lot of education, partner enablement, etcetera. So that was the first step. Whereas now the growth will be more like, Hey, how can we make sure that they start to sell us so that our sales team doesn’t have to do it? 

Palmer Foster: Which always falls to me in what I’ve experienced. It always follows that natural progression. Usually it’s what’s so interesting is you talk about the kind of almost two types of referral partners where they’re just kind of sending through on a link, which I would say a lot of people would associate as affiliate partners where they’ve got to kind of link and that’s what they send out. And, and I know we had conversations around that of, okay, what are you looking to do? Are you looking to evolve from that? And it’s you go from kind of affiliate to referral, referral to reseller and then from there you you go into the wide, wide world of all the acronyms like MSPs, Mssps, VARs, all the all the things that if it’s your first time in channel, you’re like, What does this all mean? Yeah. So it’s always interesting to kind of hear that progression, but how, you know, especially as you start to expand and you know, with the media, especially, every country is different. You have different languages, you have different cultural approaches. I mean, in in the Netherlands alone, it’s you have different regions and they identify differently and there’s different languages going on. How important is that cultural piece when you look to identify partners you want to work with?

Niels Bergmans: Yeah, that’s a that’s the big one, especially building an international partnership team. There is so much you have to take in account, right? If you look at the Netherlands only, I mean, I’m a Southern guy. I’m from the southern part of the Netherlands. I have a strong dialect. And in the beginning I was not really sure to use my regional dialect in the north right at a couple of times at events, people started to really hook on to it because they liked it. It’s warm, it’s fun. It’s like, okay, so I thought, You know what? I’ll just use my regional Eindhoven dialect and get away with it and people actually like it. And then that was that. But then going to Belgium, that’s a whole different story. They have a different culture. The Belgium’s, in my experience, don’t do business over the phone. And just a little quick zoom meeting. No, they want to go out for lunch. They want to grab like a a sandwich and have a coffee with it. And then if they like you, then they’ll go for it. But then that’s still quite similar on cultural level, same language, same type of culture.

So that’s okay. Then if you want to go to Germany, that’s a whole other story. I mean, my German is like baby level back then. And I tried to open up. I thought, you know what? I’m a bit cheeky. I have good, good chats. You know what? I’ll just go in with my bow tie, have a chat with people. If you don’t speak German and if they see that you try it, it’s okay. But then if it’s just like 10 or 20 words, then there’s still a bit hesitant. Like, Yeah, sure. And in my experience, the Germans really want to have German proof. Like what? Big brands in Germany are actually working with you. So getting that credibility on a personal level to open up the first merchant that you can start out together. And that’s just language wise, business wise. They’re still really hierarchy like there’s a big hierarchy of upper level management to like the regular ICS and how to communicate what type of words or tone of voice to use. Those challenges in the beginning were like devastating.

Palmer Foster: With Germany because you mentioned speaking the language with them. And if you’ve only got like 20 words that you can speak, is it worth just not using those because. You know, as ironically as an American doing the podcast, it’s a case of like going to France. If if you make the effort or a lot of countries, if you make the effort, they can see you’re trying. But at the same time, if it’s if you’ve got about 20 words in your vocabulary that you can speak, is it even worth doing that?

Niels Bergmans: Yeah, I would say always try to do it. Like just introduce yourself in the local language, but don’t fake it until you make it. Don’t act like you understand them fluently because they will just be stubborn and speak German or French till you like open up like, Hey, my name is Paul or my name is Niels. I’m for this company. But to be honest, I just don’t speak the language. But I just want to show you that I’m trying at least. Right. That’s great sympathy. Then they will open up to you, like, “Okay. At least. At least they’re trying, right?” 

But don’t fake it like you understand, because they will just build walls around you.

Palmer Foster: Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I’ve definitely had those experiences working with France and Italy and yeah, I’ll admit I should be ashamed of the the Italian that I speak, which isn’t, which is not up to par. So, um, which is kind of a nice segway because it’s a case of, okay, if you can’t speak the language, obviously you want to work with these partners that can. But do you need to start bringing on people on your team that speak the language? How how critical is that? What’s your experience with bringing in native speakers for your team been like?

Niels Bergmans: Yeah, that was for me, a real eye opener. And the moment that you have native speakers in a country. Then actually, if they copy what you did in your home country, like for instance, Netherlands, they can use that same strategy, adapt that to their own cultural behaviors and the ball will start rolling. And that’s insane how fast that can go. One of the trick shots that we did is that we hired a Austrian guy to do the German market and Austrian and Germany is a bit the same, like Belgium and Netherlands, like they speak the same language, but still there’s cultural barriers. So the moment we saw we have an Austrian guy and for instance, a German lady in the dark region, you could really fastly spot differences on culture as well. But like I said, it opened up the market way faster because they don’t have that cultural barrier. They don’t have that first of all, language or the way the tone of voice that people work or the the the small details that they, for instance, used to always be five minutes early to a meeting. If you’re just like ten seconds late, you’re done. You will never get in there again. Those small details really do matter. What I also try to do is get those people in this case to Eindhoven, work from the Eindhoven office, because team and company culture, in my opinion, is super important as well, which will give certain challenges in your Eindhoven office because those cultures will come together and start to brew a crazy mix of Spanish, English, Dutch, French, German culture kind of things. But yeah, definitely worth a while to hire somebody who is speaking the native language.

Palmer Foster: It’s always interesting to to hear kind of approach to do you keep those individuals in their own country. It almost has like a country manager. Do you move them to a central location? Have do you face much resistance of somebody wanting to move or is it a case of it’s kind of pretty well known that, hey, this role is is a central role? We’re not looking for somebody remote.

Niels Bergmans: And challenge is not that much. But I think one of the biggest reasons is that Eindhoven is known as the tech hub of Europe. A lot of international companies are working. Like I said, Philips, ASML are quite big Duff, the big truck company as well. So there’s a huge density of international people with international communities here. So that’s a step one. One of the other big benefits for us was, is that all the duchy’s like 99% of them speak proper English. So they were easily transacting into a new environment, a new country for Spanish, quite cold for people from the UK or Germany regular. But that move was quite easy to do and especially if we when we explained like, Hey, the reason why we want you here is to have that cultural team cohesion, that cultural game to be strong. However, after like a while people were going like, Hey, really nice that I’m in Eindhoven doing my partnership business, but flying to, for instance, Madrid or Barcelona every time, why can I not just live there and do the game, which then again brings other challenges of management, but also again cultural changes. 

Palmer Foster: It’s the joys of navigating the complex world that we live in. But you know, it all it all comes down to communication and obviously communicating with not just your team, but then communicating with your partners, which very much are an extension of your team. That’s always critical. And I know that’s something that you’ve got a lot of experience in, whether it’s navigating kind of sick leave or going through CVS, things like that. So what’s been your experience with communicating to partners and and your team communicating with them?

Niels Bergmans: I think on partner level at one point, when you have good partner managers in your team, give them all the trust and all the freedom in the world and let them do their game, let them build up their own partner tribe. Let them do what they do. Especially if you manage an international team, be open for different approaches that that you’re used to, right? So for instance, we had a partner manager in the UK that came up like, Yeah, I need some budget to do, organize a lunch and learn. And I mean a Dutch guy a bit cheap, like why would we pay for lunch? And then people would listen to us. Well, you can also just have people listen to you in the presentation and show off and then really had to get used to it. In the UK it’s quite normal to just pay for lunch, invite a lot of people and then showcase your product or just showcase a business case that you have or like in Spain, it was like, Yeah, I need budget for a couple of like dinners and drinks. 8:00 in the evening was like 8:00. We Dutch, we eat at 5:00 or at least at six. The potatoes and the meat is ready, right? But for them, their workday ends around 8 or 9:00 and then they go for dinner and some cervezas or some wines and then that’s where the business is happening. So that was.

 An eye opener for me, like give faith, be open for cultural differences on how they do business with partners and accept it. If you look at team, for instance, sick leave, that’s a good example. We duchies if we sick, we don’t need per se to go to the doctor and have like a receipt or like a written paper that says, Hey, this guy is sick, he has the flu, he has to stay home for a couple of days. We just call in the morning like, Hey, listen, I’m having the flu. I’m not going to the office and I’m staying home sick. And then like I did right now, Dutch people, nine out of ten times give a reason why they’re sick or what’s happening. For instance, if you have somebody from France, they just call you, I’m sick, I’m not coming. And for Dutch, it’s like, yeah, okay, but what is it? What is it? Are you, like, sick? Sick? Is it like long term? Is it the flu? Is it? Can I do something for you? Do you need help? Those small changes in the beginning were like, wait a minute, how do you handle that? Whereas in France and Germany, it’s really strict. Boom, nothing personal work and life is really separate there. You have companies where the younger generations from my generation are like more fluent into one another. But strictly speaking, it’s like work life. That’s it.

Palmer Foster: Oh, and it’s, you know, it’s unique, too, because you think about the Netherlands, you guys are sliced in between Germany and France. We were both kind of like clean cut, like we’re not telling you anything. And then you guys are elaborating. It might be the British influence kind of across the channel creeping over of kind of, Hey, this is what’s going on. Um, but no, that’s that’s always interesting. You talked about kind of like the lunch and learns and obviously that’s, that’s a big thing here in the UK. Um, but you think from that to maybe other events like e-commerce or events, trade shows and just kind of understanding, you know, what’s the process of navigating that, especially when you’re whether you’re looking to find partners, you’re there with partners. What’s the experience been?

Niels Bergmans: That’s a nice one. What I’ve experienced and I’m talking purely about e-commerce events because that’s the type of events that I’ve been going to ecommerce slash marketing events. And what I’ve experienced, what I’ve experienced is that. Even though the e-commerce world is huge, like literally it’s huge with new tools popping up left and right, new solutions evolving every day. The community is quite tight. And I reached out my network. I mean, I have over 5000 people on LinkedIn already, mostly e-commerce and marketing environment, and you start to see certain people on all the same type of events. So for instance, the e-commerce expo, you have one in the Netherlands, you have one in France, you have one in Spain, in the UK, in Germany, you always tend to see the same professionals but also the same companies and solutions there. So you really start to become this e-commerce hub, for instance, with tech solutions, whether it’s about loyalty or mailing or customer success, shipping payments, whatever, you always see the same people, but still everybody adapts to the type of environment that they’re in at that moment. So in Spain, at the e-commerce expo around 4:00, the majority of the booths will have like a hams and like cervezas and food and drinks and little music will start going on while in Germany that will be strict. When the event is over after the event, then they will have like an after party or like a meetup with dinner and drinks. And. Whereas, in the UK they do have dinners, but mostly it’s like standing dinners, like walking dinner, like more mingled together in the Netherlands, they mostly are not that strict with the drinks on the booth, but it’s a bit more like hush hush, like smaller teams organizing something for a niche group. And I think those differences are quite interesting to see. Like international people go everywhere and adapt like this to the local traditions or like behavior. 

Palmer Foster: I think that that probably helps to make a good channel partner manager You think about they’ve got to be able to embrace what their partners are doing, but what the end client is doing as well versus if you’re focused particularly on a region, obviously it’s easy to kind of get tunnel vision and just really hone in on that. So that’s that’s a very interesting point. But, you know, coming back to, okay, you’ve got to understand the partners you’re working with, if you don’t understand, like coming back to when you first started building out your process, you didn’t really have a process. How do you how do you start scaling your partners while you’re figuring out that process?

Niels Bergmans: What I’ve learned in the end and what I’m doing right now is make sure that the structure that you have is set and scalable instead of having a tool that you start to work with because yeah, you know what? That tool is already there. Let’s just go for it. Pick a tool that’s really compliant with your future vision. Like where do you want to grow to? Like managing 100 partners in a certain type of CRM, which is easy to use but doesn’t have a lot of integrations with other tools or solutions, I can tell you that will bite you in the ass big time because when you grow to like 4 or 5 600 agency partners having to migrate everything from the basic solution that you have first into the level two, three type of game, that’s a hassle, that’s a real pain in the ass. So first thing, make sure that you have your end vision in mind and get get the proper tools in place. From the beginning, it might be a bit more expensive. Okay, fair enough. But at least know that if you don’t, this payment will catch you up later because you have to take a lot of more time into scaling it to that next tool that you want to use. That was one of the first ones that I said like, You know what? I’m not going to do that again. 

Processes, agreements, teamwork with marketing and sales. Make sure that that’s aligned, that we have the same measurements, the same KPIs, the same goals. Then, work from there.

Palmer Foster: Amazing. Yeah. And you talk about tech there and what kind of tech resources do you normally look to work with? Because again, somebody new in channel that’s listening to this. What can we help them be aware of?

Niels Bergmans: I think the first step is make sure that you know what your sales team is working with. Check out what your marketing team is working with and see if you can fit your strategy in the same tool. Because if all those departments are working in the same tool and in this case, for instance, CRM, it’s really convenient. Most CRMs are embedded on a sales process, but can you tweak that sales process into a partner management process? Not always. Is the same process suitable for either partner management or sales, but can you tweak it a bit? If you have that, that’s a go on marketing level, for instance, mailing programs. Is there a mailing solution already within a CRM that you’re working with or are they using a separate program? Can you do onboarding automation flows, for instance, for partners that if they want to join, like, Hey, welcome to join? Step two is Let’s have a call to get to know each other. After that, do you want to sign a contract to become a partner? Da da da da da da da. Is that possible with a marketing tool or do we need, for instance, again, that CRM environment where there’s an opportunity for it, but also the whole partner management part of things? Um, like I said, it will not always fit in a CRM like it has boundaries and do you need that next level, that next step to not only have the onboarding but also the real time communication going back and forth, the referral part, How do you track that? Um, that are quite some tools. So mailing CRM, I would go for the moment that you hit a certain amount of partners and that is different per type of company per type of channel that you’re building. And another one that I would say might be a CSM type of program where you build up relationships normally with merchants, for instance, but that can also have help for partners. Again, that’s nine out of ten times already taken care of. But yeah.

Palmer Foster: You’ve kind of knocked out my next question, which is if you’ve been if you’ve been listening to the podcast series, it’s it’s kind of the curveball, but it’s really what would your, you know, somebody starting off in channel, what’s your what’s your advice to them? What should they be doing. And I think you’ve kind of really pointed out quite a few things today of, you know, initial needs. But is there anything else that you would want to add to that of somebody in their first role?

Niels Bergmans: In the first room. Like I said, map out a plan. Have have a horizon. People always say take a dot on the horizon. I never take a dot because that dot might change the moment you come closer. So if you have an horizon, work towards it. Have a clear vision. Like, I’m happy when I hear the amount of partners of type X and just start. But keeping processes as scalability. Don’t settle for a cheap solution because it’s free or because it’s, like I said, more cheap to begin with because that will bite you in the ass big time along the way. But the most important thing is begin build a personal brand. Think about scalability and about the onboarding enablement part of a partner.

Palmer Foster: And you just opened up a door to another question that now I want to ask is, is he mentioned, okay, don’t cheap out on solutions. How do you get buy in from from the business in that strategic advantage?

Niels Bergmans: That’s an interesting one. I had quite some discussions about this topic. How do you get like a green light from the sea level and above? Right. Um, my answer back then was like, prove that the value that you bring with partner management outweighs everything, right? So if you can prove that the leads that you bring in for your partners have a better conversion rate than a regular outbound call or a marketing lead, or that the HIV is higher, that the support rate is lower because your partners are working with those merchants, or, for instance, your churn is way lower because the partners don’t want them to churn and will keep them close that are already like four pillars that you can show off. Like, hey, my deals are A, B, C, and D compared to those deals, I can only handle so many partners that will refer so many leads if I will use this tool. Predictions will be 25% more of time because you don’t have to burn your time on reaching out to partners. You can do that through the tool or having the onboarding flow instead of having like ten steps in your whole partner lead flow. Bring that down to like three steps, which are automated. Like those kind of metrics, at least in a commercial perspective, they all go for it.

Palmer Foster: Yeah, no very valid points. I think anyone listening to this that’s kind of in their first or second role, they’re going to definitely be able to pick up some big things, even even seasoned veterans. But brings us to our final question again. If you’ve been listening to the series, you guys know what’s coming. So final question I’ve got for you is the fun one. Um, I ask each of my guests to ask a question for the next one can be about anything purposes. Get them thinking outside the box. But that also means you get to answer the previous guest question. So the question you get to answer today is from Guillaume Russer from Mixpanel. Do you think partnership is art or science?

Niels Bergmans: Yeah, that’s a difficult one. Art or science? Yeah, I’m a creative fellow, so I would go with art because I would say a combination of art and evolution. You can organize the whole game, so you begin small and you start to learn and grow. And I think that’s the art of the game rather than science with a lot of proven concepts. I think partnerships as a environment or as a job is quite young compared to sales or marketing and. Not enough science yet, in my opinion, to prove the real facts like, okay, it’s that. So I would go for art.

 Palmer Foster: But I see what you did there because he threw in Darwinism, which theoretically is a science, I would argue. So you’re combining the two. I’ll let you get away with it. Fair enough.

 Niels Bergmans: You got me. 

Palmer Foster: So, Niels, what’s your question for our next guest?

Niels Bergmans: My question is and I’m really curious about this one. Please be honest about it. Like what muck up did you do in your career on partnerships that you would definitely do again?

Palmer Foster: Remake that mistake, go. Okay, that’s a great one. Well, Niels, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Absolute. Thanks to our guests. Neil Bergmans from Partner Manager Lead at SFI. Thank you for our listeners for joining us for the fifth episode of the AMEA Partner Channel podcast. Finally, a special thank you to the people behind the scenes making this possible. Chloe, who leads the marketing efforts in EMEA and gets our fabulous guests. I get to speak to you and have fun conversations like this and Rachel, who handles all the in-house editing to produce these podcasts. If you’ve enjoyed the podcast, don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast episodes wherever you like to listen. And till next time, take care.

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