The Partner Channel Podcast Episode #1
Hyperscaling a Partner Program
Daniel sits down with Gilbert Vendryes, Senior Executive specializing in Global Partner Programs at Zoom. He has more than 25 years of experience delivering strategy, programs, and processes to benefit global revenue growth projects and together they look at the successes and challenges of Zoom’s partner program. They’ll also uncover how Zoom transitioned to a partner-focused selling model.
Daniel: Welcome to the Partner Channel Podcast of partner channel community. In this episode, Daniel Graff-Radford sit down with Gilbert Vendreyes, Senior Executive specializing in Global Strategy and Operations to discuss hyperscaling a partner program. Welcome Gilbert thank you for being on our show. Could you start off by telling us what Zoom does for people that don’t know if there is anyone left?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: Daniel thank you for having me. I’m sure there are people still don’t know about Zoom. So very happy to, to talk about it. So. Basically Zoom is a unified communication platform. So the intent is to really have business transform everything around collaboration and the communication practices and the idea being that it’s all about leveraging a unique and simple common interface for all uses.
It might be meetings it might be voice. It might be video within one single simple interface.
Daniel: Fantastic. And you know, I’ve spoken with you before and you’ve got a really fantastic background for the audience that has worked in channel for years themselves. Can you help us understand a little bit more about your background and how you ended up at Zoom?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: Yeah, absolutely. So I like to say, I was born in the channel. Actually started my career at 26 years, plus let’s not talk about that working for channel partners and over the course of mulitple years, I started thinking maybe I, I liked to go to the next level. Maybe away from the customers, but still interacting with channel partners.
So that’s how I joined Apple, VP for the year 2000 and there managing channel partners and slowly, slowly over time joined two different companies, including a EMC and VMware where my role was all about moving away from just managing directly to the channel. But more into how we can drive better programs, better communication, which transformed automatically into managing the partner experience, at VMware. Short experience in a startup doing the exact same thing until I joined Zoom last year at the time of the IPO with the exact same mission, which was how can we do better with the channel partners and the way to get the higher level of experience and a good adoption.
So my career has been built around partner experience and what I bring from having started my career in Europe and now here in the U.S. Is definitely a more, more realistic global approach, to that experience, making sure that I have this open mind of the variety of the world and not just the U.S. centric aspect of it.
Daniel: In the, you know, in the year that I’ve known, when you, your attention to detail as a team on partner experience is pretty unparalleled. I know we’re going to spend a little bit of time during this podcast to kind of talk about what that means for people that haven’t built anything at Zoom’s scale. But Zoom didn’t start at that scale. So I’m sure we’ll get into that in a minute here. But what I’d love to, to hit on here, which is a question I’m sure a lot of people are interested in. Kind of the insider perspective in this unprecedented time, kind of, what does it feel like? And what’s changed the most about Zoom as we’re all kind of stuck at home because of COVID and remote working?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: Wow the biggest thing clearly for Zoom was still built for scale at at least from an infrastructure perspective and a technology aspect. But the main focus of the company was really a B2B direct targeting the large enterprises and a large accounts because the platform itself was definitely a design for that approach.
What happened to us over the last small as actually created this huge shift toward B2C toward the consumer space and from one day to another, we’ve seen millions of single users. We already had this free non product and open to everybody, but suddenly the shift of the share of our users have been moving from enterprises to single users.
You must have read this number, but around December timeframe last year, we were adding something like 10 million users a day using the platform and what happened to 300 million in April 200 in March and 300 in, in, in April. So, a completely different change of landscape I would say where we’ve been actually quite good and that’s why I was saying that the company was built for scale was that all the different platform and infrastructure we have in the data center around the world will transport all these voice and video aspect. We’ve been able to actually to sustain that increase of volume, the other big, big challenge is unfortunately, as far as the challenges regarded is that we had just prior to this confinement situation, we have a launch a brand new program.
There was opening the gate for us to add more and more partners, more in, in thousands. We got this out the door just before everything happened because as you can imagine, even though we had a huge peak on the consumer side, there were also a lot of verticals, like educational and healthcare.
Who came to realize that maybe the tool, maybe a tool like Zoom and then went out directly to their partners, the channel partners, and say, Hey, it can help us immediately. And we had the exact program at that time to make sure that we could respond to the demand. So very fortunate, but the company is right now saying, “Oh God, we weren’t prepare for the consumer space.”
And we have a lot of things to, to, to, to fix around that. And there were, there were a lot of articles on security. For example, there were not that much a constant in the enterprise space. But suddenly got, got revealed as potential issues in smaller businesses.
Daniel: You know, on the personal level, my mom, who’s been teaching yoga for more decades than she cared for me to mention on a podcast, has been teaching, stretching and yoga on Zoom to people in their 80s and the ability for a consumer to come on board and, and use this out of the box without a lot of handholding is truly amazing. And you can see that in the numbers that you just mentioned. And then, you know, on the channel side of things too, you know, talking about how verticals get activated and they start coming to you in an unprecedented way. It is an amazing change.
The, you know, next thing that I think would be really helpful as you had just described how you at this just in time launched to be able to handle the scale, but it’d be nice to kind of go backwards a little bit and help our listeners understand Zoom’s journey into creating channels, going from direct into more channel. And then, you know, how has channels sort of been created and evolved at Zoom as an organization over time as people might be at more of the early stage of, of their channel journey as they’re creating it for themselves?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: So, yeah, a very good question, because sometimes we tend to forget where we started and what brought us to, where we are to today. The company was created, I think 11 years ago, I should know that. But as the product was evolving, the value of the approach around channel has evolved as well at the same time. In the early days the best way to actually find or leverage the value of channel was really to, to look after the best hardware partnerships, technology partnerships. As I said, the platform is carrying video and voice and when you talk about video and voice, then you obviously need to have the equipment that send and receive the video and the voice. So, we started with, alliances with technology partners. And over time, every single channel move towards resellers because they were the one being able to actually address the customer and merge both the software platform and the, the hardware components.
Resellers and services and the service providers, of course, but again, talking about scalability, talking about reaching, a broader landscape around the world, we had to think about how we could get actually into a deeper level of penetration in the markets with the right channel partners with honestly, ourselves investing thousands of resources to support the channel. And that’s how we recently did this show with this new model of agents where we’re actually leveraging the channel too. Because of their original BRAF on the contact with the customers to actually provide us with leads. And we take good care of cross selling together with them rather than just working and managing resellers or working and managing separately, hardware technology partners.
Daniel: That sounds just like a very logical approach to creating an ecosystem of many potential needs out there in the market, whether that’s hardware, whether that’s deployment, whether those are tech partners, integrated partners, and that you’re taking each one in turn and adding them to the, to the whole. You know, so then I guess the next step now that you’ve given us sort of the historical lesson is what are you working on right now? What’s next? What’s going to happen in the channel at Zoom?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: Oh, a couple of things are, I mean, the full laundry list is very long, but the top ones, I are, are quite easy to identify and explain. So definitely the international expansion, Zoom is a US based company and as any American company, no offense to anybody here you started the US market, which is a huge, huge market to start with and then you think about maybe we can go abroad.
So, Zoom has always had an international business, but not necessarily representing a big share, for the last year and a half now this has become a high priority. And of course, when it comes to channel, there are so many markets outside of the US where it is channel only.
So, one of my top priority’s right now is to make sure that we develop something that is not only scalable, but is reaching every, every single country that we have around the world and adjusting our programs based on what the market is actually used to.
So, I was talking about the agent model that we have before. That’s not something that exists everywhere. So we have to be conscious of and make sure that we maintain the technology partnerships that reseller partnerships with service providers, or we can live with service providers in markets where we have less presence. And something that is coming to us as well.
Right now, not that we talk broadly about effect, we’re going deeper into the national market. We start having a global partners or mutual contract partners coming at us and say, how can I go and promote Zoom technology in all those countries I’m present? And we are not ready yet I mean, I’m working on it. But, how we can indeed address those, those global presence of those partners that we have already established relationships? And then the normal things, keep the lights on as I like to say. But make sure that the programs we have right now and the operations related to those programs keep on enhancing, always based on our partner feedback.
So, keep hearing what the partners have to say, capture their voice and make sure that we reflect that into how we enhance or improve the current programs and operations.
Daniel: You know, I speak to hundreds and hundreds of companies that are, are either in the beginning, middle or more mature like yourselves and building out a channel programs.
And you know, one of the things that you’re describing here is a very thoughtful approach about channel coverage. You know, where you have salespeople, where you don’t have salespeople to think about how to reach those markets and who are the existing partners that could help versus ones that you need to have based on what’s in that market.
So, channel coverage is definitely, some of the things that, that people don’t think enough about. And it seems like that you guys are really focused on with the international expansion. And that’s great, you know, you talked about this massive increase in demand, but if we were to think about, you know, We’ve seen your channel program on Allbound, growing at an incredible clip here.
What does that feel like for you guys running this channel program on the internal side? What are you faced with the increased demand from your partners today?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: It is both exciting and a nightmare at the same time, because I like myself to work on strategy and plan in advance and be more proactive than reactive.
But obviously what happened to us in the, in the last three to four months, even though we were launching this program and we knew that this program would be a success. We still right now in a reactive mode, so the most important thing in everything we’re doing and everything you’re trying to fix right now, and everything we’re trying to improve is to make sure that it is in a scalable fashion.
So thinking about a program, how we can make this program as global as possible? And I was saying earlier that sometimes it doesn’t work everywhere, socialization or adjustment, but the systems behind that and the resources supporting both the programs and the system, make sure that we look at as much as we can in automation.
There are a couple of reasons for that number one, we’ve been a company for more than a year now. So we have to have things that are properly vetted and structured. So therefore we are absolutely compliant, but also because as I said, the volume is there. Everything has to be built for scale.
And therefore automation is the best way to prepare ourselves for the next years, because this is only just starting. The most important thing is the resources because at the end of the day, the channel business is still one company talking to another company and ultimately is, is one person talking to another person it’s still human.
And if you have enough resources to make sure that regardless of the automation and the tools that you put in place, like the partner portal, but you still have somebody that is able to answer somebody else’s question. It is important. So we are making a lot of investments as well in resources, human resources, to make sure that we can face and, and better respond to that demand.
One example being it’s when you work for Zoom, I’ve done that in my past lives, but we’re building an entire team of partner support. A partner support specialist, so people will be there on a 24/7 days in order to, to react and respond more quickly to any partner requests in terms of, “I don’t know how to access the portal” or “I lost my password” or “can you explain me this piece of the program” those sort of things. So, yeah. Just keeping thinking about, regardless of what are we doing, might be a quick win or big project. How can we take this in the long run into, into something that will be still there in the next two to three years?
Daniel: I think that makes a lot of sense in that interplay between that human to human aspect.
That really is the partnership as well as how you tie in the automation. You know, when I think about what I see happening within your partner portal and interacting with your team. You know, we’re going to talk about superpowers in a minute here, but if I was to describe the superpower of the Zoom, partner team, is that you guys really think carefully about the partner experience, whether it’s on the human side, whether it’s on the automation side.
I really think it would help our audience a lot. If you could help them to learn a little bit about what you do, the level of testing and detail that you guys put into both the human side and the automation side.
Can you talk a little bit about your expectations on the partner experience and the level of testing that you require, for things that you roll out, because I think everyone should learn from that.
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: Yep. Absolutely. The partner experience is, is broad. And in some ways it’s vague, but it’s actually very broad because it’s really about thinking what are all those different interactions that we have as a vendor with those partners or those companies that have decided actually to spend some of their time with us.
And for us and it’s really about understanding all those different touchpoints. So, as I said earlier, the human one is extremely important. But we also tend to leverage, electronic communications and tools. And we want to make sure that when we, we enhance one of those things, if it doesn’t have an impact on the other areas that we have in terms of touch points with our partners, because everything is connected.
It’s like a vicious circle, because if you do something bad on the portal, for example, if you don’t necessarily communicate properly there, then you’re gonna increase the requests from your partners. Eventually frustration that you’re going to get from an inbound perspective on the partner support desk. If you increase the partner support desk, benefit that you may still, you may see less use usage of the portal.
And, and the idea is really to think how we can, when we launch something new, we want to introduce a new feature. When we introduce a new service, or we just launch a new program, try to really understand the impact that this has on the other components of this partner experience. And my team is getting bigger so I can now assign some sort of specific areas to the, my team members. But I’m really at home everyday making sure that my team stays one unique team, even though they work in their corner, because as I said, everything is connected. So everything that one of my team member does is actually impacting others
This testing phase I think is really important because that’s where we can gauge how much indeed this new feature or this new service we’re delivering has not only an impact on the partner satisfaction, but also an impact on the other pieces. It’s important for us to test that and to listen to what our partners have to say, because then we can anticipate, we can adjust, or we can just consider, okay that that’s fine and let’s invest somewhat as to make sure we compensate what we have created here or there.
Daniel: I think that’s great. And you know, what it feels like from Allbound is, you know, superstars on your team. Like Jen, you know, will speak to us about their own testing that they do is if they were, or the partner running through the portal, get that to where it feels as right as it can get.
Then we’ll see you guys roll it out to a select group of partners, maybe calling that a soft launch or an early release or something. And getting feedback adjusting based on that learning and then going much wider to, you know, the thousands of, of organizations around the world, so that you’re ready for the hyper scale at that point.
And, you know, I think everyone can learn from that, that process. And you guys do it very fast. Which is great.
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: Thank you.
Daniel: When you think about other people out there that are running their channel programs, that they’re a vendor running a channel program, and you guys are the experts on, you know, working remotely at Zoom. What, what advice would you give them as a challenge or something that that would help them to think about running a channel now that they’re remote and maybe they weren’t before?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: So two comments about that. when this lockdown situation happened to us, I mean, in the office and we got called in by our executive team and they said, we we’re going to preempt what’s happening. Actually, we were heading, it was the first week of March and they said, are we going to preempt what may become quite a critical situation. We’re going to send everybody home. And, it was quite a surprise for most of the, of us because being a young and dynamic company was ahead of a very young generation of people who actually have never worked from home that entire life in that entire career.
But the message from our management was very simple saying that if we can’t do it at Zoom, with the products we have, that we are very familiar with, then how, how can we be able to sell it to our partners and to our customers? So. Get your head around it and go home, be safe, but use Zoom and get cheaper at promoting the way that we can actually work remotely and we can train our customers and partners to work remotely.
So yes, I would say that on the paper we have the right tools and we have the right philosophy. Now that being said, when it comes to the channel, I don’t think that we should consider the management of channel to be remote. The tools might help us to stay connected, but the most critical thing is that actually we have to stay on the field.
We have to stay close to the partners as much as possible. So sometime when I hear this remote channel, I think about, Oh, I’m going to, I’m going to stay here and I got partners all over the world I’m not going to visit them or see them or what, whatever. Fortunately at Zoom we have, and many other companies, we have channel account managers in the major countries around the world and the mission that, those people have right now in those times is to make sure that despite the lack of business travel they are staying in touch with every single partner and not necessarily, they go after webinars or large group of sessions of meetings, but we stay.
In doing what they were doing, which is still remote geographically, but it looks like more personalized and they talk on a one to one basis with every single partner. That’s what we’re doing on the outside, where my team is doing is going to make sure that we keep interacting with those channel account managers we have in every single country to keep on getting this feedback and keep having this strong communication on a one to one and not on the, on the broad mass for webinars, et cetera.
Daniel: Yeah. So I think that’s really important that idea of, even though you’re remote don’t go to just automation and mass interaction. But yeah keep those individual interactions in where you can have geographically relevant interactions as well. That makes a lot of sense. I think we should switch now to the final four questions that we have for you. If you had one superpower, what would it be and why?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: So, I like to say, I think globally and come coming from a, from another geo, the one I’m currently in and having worked at geo across multiple countries, I like to have this open mindset of understanding the differences between all the different markets, regions, et cetera.
And if I could have a superpower would be actually to be able to understand and feel at live with those every single local culture, we get a kind of custom to, to the attract tradition. So being able to, to, to tell jokes with a Japanese colleague or partner, as well as going to a serious historical discussion of a German or Italian person.
And on top of that, the best thing I could have is obviously to be socially fluent in all those languages. That would be my, my superpower. Just to get, I love human people, I love history, and culture and that you would have you be close to all those different people I’m interacting with on a daily basis.
Daniel: Yeah. That’s a wonderful one. So adaptive culture and language on a globalized basis. I think that that would be the same one my wife would pick. She speaks a few languages and loves, loves to travel and get to know people deeply. I think that’s a great one. Alright. If you could name one mistake and one success that you’ve had in the channel.
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: Only one? Haha. You know the theory about the channel right? So, you build and you dismantle and rebuild again because that’s how it goes. Right? And dismantle because you realize you’ve made a mistake. So, one has taken a minute that actually stayed with me, was at my times somewhere a few years ago, I had a lot of time sitting with partners, trying to understand how we could improve a rebate programs or incentive program, just to make sure that indeed we get them on track in order to develop a specific line of businesses that we have just launched and have them move away from the commoditized business and go after those new opportunities.
So spent a lot of time with them captured, built the, the program, sat with my executive management to get the support and the buy-in and just launch that. I mean it did work well, but it didn’t work for the rest of the fiscal year. And then it wasn’t repeated the year after, because I made that very simple mistake, which was, I built my model.
I convinced everybody that it would work and it did work, but I didn’t build a financial aspect, the volume assumption in order to maintain the budget or the impact of the control revenue in the longer run. I only build that within the, the fisical year I was in and then as I said, during the year after these programs just disappeared because it wasn’t budgeted.
And I learned a lot from that, thinking that again, earlier I was talking about scalability and long term of things. it taught me that whatever I’m thinking about building, it’s not a one time off it has to be built to and sustained.
Daniel: I think sustainability is one of those lessons that, everyone has to learn the hard way at some point, but you’re right.
Whether it’s putting it into a budget or a model or building out the, the after effects, that’s really important in all aspects of business. All right. One success.
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: That’s easy because I’m going to take the last one. I’ve had some successes fortunately, but the last one is this is the most impactful. At least in my head right now is this launch of the launch of the agent program. Inspired by that mistake I made a long time ago. I spent more time eventually with finance and, and finance planning within Zoom to make sure that the program, when we would build and launch it with all the incentives that are part of it, would actually be looked at with the impact on the overall company, gross margin and gross profit or over cost for the next five years.
And we worked on all those details of numbers to make sure that these would then be there to stay. The good thing with this agent program, as I said, was a natural evolution of the channel business and channel strategy within Zoom. And apart from having been launched just before these unusual times that we currently facing it is actually a big success for the company as well. Because it really helps combining the, the cordiality, any of Zoom, which is mostly a direct sales approach, with the channel and we engage the channel into serving more and more the business. So the success is not just from a program perspective and an impact into the channel, but also how much it brings in terms of contributions with revenue, with the company and the alignment with the sales strategy.
Daniel: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. And a lot of people that, you know, are thinking about channel that, it’s not at odds with direct and that this is a way as a company for you guys to get access to far more potential buyers. And so a successful agent program really helps you to think about there are potential buyers of your product out there.
How can you most easily engage with them? And I think that that’s a great example of success for everyone to think about. all right. So as someone who’s, you know, at a high level of leadership within one of the world’s most successful companies, there’s people listening to this podcast that might aspire to be you one day.
If you were to pick a book to, business or otherwise that you want to recommend to someone to better themselves and learn, that wants to grow into channel leadership. What, what’s a book that you would recommend?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: So as a, I’ll tell you as a salesperson I’m quite lazy. So I wouldn’t try to make things as quick as possible.
And don’t waste my time don’t spend too much time in order to get any outcomes. So the book I picked, you know, you’re going to laugh at that. It’s actually an eBook of 20 pages. but that’s enabled has been waiting by my former president of VMware who has been inspiring me for a long, long time, actually for my entire career.
At VMware, he happens also to, to, to be on the, one of the investors of Zoom, in the name of Carl Eschenbach. And he wrote, A little booklet called Sales Leadership Lessons where he summarizes over those 30 pages what he has been through in is I dunno, 30 plus year career.
And, there are, there are four things to, to get out of this very simple, very easily and quickly read book. Is that whatever you build in terms of sales and of course it does apply to channel. It’s about simplifying to scale. So whatever you, you create, some just make it as simple as possible. So that’s the best way to scale.
The number two thing is really about reducing friction. And you are just talking, I talk about the launch of the agent program a few months ago, and you were saying that indeed, how we can get to a broader reach into the channel and make it easy for, for them. But it’s all about that. It’s all about reducing friction.
So make sure that whatever you pay from the organization perspective or program perspective, it’s easy to consume, easy to understand, at least whatever you driving in your sale. In your sales approach and channel management approach. It has to be strategically tactical.
It’s very weird because sometimes people will tend to dissociate either strategic or tactical. But it’s really about thinking that every single piece of tactics, that you may be working, they fit into a strategy and vice versa, that the way you build a strategy, you are able to actually breaking down into those little tactics.
It might be like every single quarter. You look at your approach, your data, your matrix, but it’s not just this one short term, 90 days, visions really embedded into this, the long launch strategy. So what do you think about I’m going to repeat myself, but the stretch to strategically tactical and, and the last thing I like in, so I like in that eBook, honestly, I refer to two or three times a year just to make sure I’m still on.
I’m still not derailing from my initial track is really to make sure that whatever you do at, especially when it comes to those partners outside of it is more about significance than over success. So don’t necessarily think that ‘hey we launched a program we’re the best, the best company’. No, it’s how much it weighs on it’s how much it means for the people that is that who is the target of your program or your, or your enhancements.
So make sure that it’s always significant.
Daniel: Well, it’s fantastic that you got to work for someone that was so inspiring to, to write that book. And it sounds very approachable and that it sounds like great advice for someone. thanks for sharing that one final question five years from now, what will be the major changes in the channel that people should think of about right now?
Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom: Having many interviews in my career, I know always had this. What I thought is a stupid question from interviewers, which is what do you think it would have been five years from now? And, and I can’t tell you. I’m sure that people have had this question in 2015 may never had the answer being what we currently living in 2020, right? So I’m going to try to answer your question. Although I do believe that it’s, it’s a very difficult question, especially in our industry. Now, that being said, I’ve seen trends all over the past years. And one important one is the fact that in the channel community, the staff, the people working those photos on partners, all those were new channel companies.
This is a brand new, different generation than the one I was born with than the one I’d be interacting with for the last 20 plus years. There’s a new generation coming, which is a normal evolution of our, of our society. But this new generation of individuals, they think differently, they interact differently.
They operate differently as well. And, this is something that. I would recommend every single company and people listening to this podcast to really think about the things you’re doing today or the things you are doing five years ago, won’t be the same in five years from now because the interaction with those partners will drastically change.
And we talk about the Generation Y Generation X and the Millennials, et cetera, but I’m sure that there’s another one coming as well. the, I think the other big difference is oddly enough, that’s something I’ve been hearing for almost 20 years now, is that I believe with the cloud business and the SaaS business, that the channel will definitely surely services oriented partners, more than just what we used to call a VAR what we used to call reseller and so on.
This business, this piece of the, of the industry is shifting toward more services because we, as vendors, we would try to own most of the things we deliver service virtually for cloud, you just install an app and then you have everything. And if you will need some support, you don’t even have to pick up your phone.
You can just get the support instantly from the app. So, the person who has been the company, the partner who has been in between us as a vendor and the customer, they there have been, and they keep it. And they will keep doing so challenge and shift them, their mindset and their approach to the customer.
But it’s all about more services than just the service that they, they live on our behalf because what do we do with all these, these cloud and SaaS technologies is sort about business transformation and partners will survive if they can embrace that and the new companies will come and will love that.
It’s really about Mr. Customer I’m going to help you keep on evolving, keep on, getting faster, keep on carrying this on that. And ultimately, yeah, you know, I have this piece of solution called Zoom and this piece of solution called whatever, but why are they going to, how are they going to approach the customer is more around.
Let me help you get to the next generation of your business. Make it more competitive, more, more dynamic, more reactive.
Daniel: I think those are two really important and good trends to think about. You know, we definitely see the demographic change, as, as people within the channel are skewing younger and the way that they work with the channel is, is definitely changing.
And then we also see this concept of how to engage the prosumer on a, on a seamless basis to solve a real problem for them and be more than a device, be a solution. I think that that is really good. Good advice.
Thank you to our guest, Gilbert Vendryes from Zoom and thank you to our listeners for taking the time to listen to the Partner Channel Podcast.
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